Introduction, Personal Relationship with Ron Tamol

Storage of Philip Morris equipment and documents in home of Hatsy Heep

Discussion of Ron Tamol's work at Philip Morris, Maintaining proper levels of nicotine

Identification of documents in Ron Tamol's handwriting, "Enough nicotine to keep smoker hooked"

Lying to OSHA

Harassment by Philip Morris lawyers, Disposition of Ron Tamol's documents

Conflict between Ron Tamol and Philip Morris lawyers

Deterioration of personal relationship between Hatsy Heep and Ron Tamol

Confrontation of Hatsy Heep by Philip Morris lawyers

Ron Tamol's solicitation of Hatsy Heep's daughter for Philip Morris research into how she had been able to quit smoking Marlboros

Reaction to Liggett settlement

Attempt to contact tobacco litigation personnel

Philip Morris executive knowledge of nicotine's addictiveness, manipulation of nicotine in cigarettes, lying to Congress

Philip Morris marketing philosophy aimed at adolescents

HATSY HEEP, 2701 Hanover Avenue, Richmond, Virginia 23220, who, after having been first duly sworn by the above-named Certified Shorthand Reporter, did testify as follows

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. I've introduced myself. I'm Russ herman and Charlie will note the other folks that are in the room. This is an attorney work product, so we are going to try and keep it privileged between us and I will make sure you will get a copy ot it. And I'm correct that you have already discussed with your own private attorneys whatever advice you felt you needed and you are comfortable with this?

A. Yes, I am

EXAMINATION BY MR. GAUTHIER:

For the record, it could be used, Hatsy, with your permission, if you allow us, in other proceedings at other times, so other attorneys won't say later, oh, it's just to be used confidentially.

A. Okay.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. If you would, could you go back for us and tell us about how you first met with Mr. Tamol and your relationship and, you know, whatever?

A. This is almost embarrassing.

MR. GAUTHIER: That's all right.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. That's all right.

A. I had been seeing a gentleman for a very long time, a very long committed relationship, that ended. And I ended the relationship. And my children were home for Christmas. And they went to collegiate school and -- collegiate school in Richmond which is a private school, and they have a great number of friends and we always have a large Christmas party, and that's traditional. And there are adults there and children there and everything. And everyone was trying to fix me up. All my friends were trying to fix me up.

Q. Lots of matchmakers?

A. Oh, you bet, lots of matchmakers. I got a call from Jenny and Andy, and along would come this human. And I thought it was really funny that the first sort of fix-up of which I was not made aware, the gentleman in question was an attorney -- is an attorney. And I was invited to a dinner party. I'm used to going alone. He was gone all the time with trials and offices out of state. And I'm very comfortable with going to places or with another couple alone. We have been to Europe together, Jenny, Andy and I, and everybody thought he had a dark-haired wife and a blonde wife. And, you know, I was sort of used to that. But anyway, I've always thought it was very funny, it was the first fix-up date with a lawyer. I looked at my friends and I said are you people crazy or what.

Q. You had enough of lawyers?

A. Several nights later, as my children were leaving, my daughter's best friend dared me to respond to a Style Magazine ad. It was a dare. It was a bet. He said he would take everybody to the country club in Virginia to Sunday-brunch at the James River Course if I would respond to the ad and go out with this fellow once, meet him somewhere. And I said, "Fred, you're on." And we were all in hysterics over this thing. So, they are all pouring over this Style Magazine which is a very nice magazine, I might add. It's not like a newspaper thing. Very well done. Mike Abernathy is the editor and it is well done. And they picked the ad and so I called and left this somewhat seductive message, you know: "Hello," this type of thing. And I was going to win the bet come hell or high water. Well, it was Ron. Ron Tamol. And it said, "Professional engineer," whatever. I mean, it was not, obviously, some 25 year old or something. And it said "Philip Morris" and whatever. So, we met at the tobacco company restaurant in Richmond for lunch. And he started inviting me out. We'd go to the ballet and go to the symphony.

Q. When was that, do you remember?

A. Two years ago, Christmastime.

EXAMINATION BY MR. GUIDROZ:

Q. '93?

A. Yes. So, we started seeing each other. And the relationship became more and mare serious - He asked me to marry him and I accepted, and he gave me a beautiful engagement ring. And all and all, I would say that I was a little bored, but very happy and very content.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. Hatsy, when did you become engaged?

A. We set a wedding date for July a year ago and became engaged at Christmastime. December '94.

Q. Was Ronald Tamol -- I pronounced that right? T-A-M-O-L?

A. Yes

Q. And it's a long "A."

A. (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

Q. Was Ron Tamol employed at Philip Morris when you first met him?

A. No. He had taken early retirement. He had just, it was my understanding, worked out his retirement package and he was at sort of loose ends because he was apparently, and still is in many ways, a complete workaholic and retirement was just awful for him. So, I became his new hobby.

Q. What can you -- some people fish and some people bowl. What can you tell us about his background that you learned about him in the course -- in terms of his work life, where he worked before and what he did?

A. Ron is a braggart and I used to admonish him when we were with groups of people to quit talking about himself; that nobody is that fascinated with him, you know. I realized that he's really not so much bragging, but as an engineer that is the only thing he knows about. And he would go into these esoteric scientific things and people would go "ahhgg," you know, and walk away and such. But he came from very humble beginnings, which I think explains a lot of his personality; Polish-American from Buffalo, New York. Poor. Large family. And he is the brilliant star of the family out of seven children. He had gone to a very selective school, high school, that he qualified for. And then he went to Buffalo University; and then he was hired by Dow Chemical near Niagara Falls as predominantly a scientist. It's interesting because his degree is in mechanical engineering, but he's basically more of a chemist, a chemical scientist in his reading and in his profession and proficiency. He described for me in great detail all the chemicals he was around while he was at Dow and numerous incidences that occurred. He was offered a job by -- he married. He was offered a job by Philip Morris. They sought him out actively; he had no intention of leaving that part of the country.

Q. When was that?

A. Let's see. Ron was born in Richmond, Ellen was born in Richmond. Ellen's 32. It would have been at least 34, 35 years ago. And they actively recruited him. Flew him down to Richmond and really wanted him. Really, really wanted him. And Ron's ex-wife was from the Connecticut area and didn't want to leave there. As I got to know him better -- his friends are very few. Very few people. It is only those people with whom he worked.

Q. Philip Morris?

A. Philip Morris people. And all they would talk about is -- I mean, they would sit and discuss experiments from 20 years ago like it was last week.

Q. Could you give us the names of some of these folks, do you recall?

A. Primarily, John Lephardt and he has a long-term companion named Jody. And then there are a number of people that Ron plays golf with that are simply male companions. But he has great difficulty making friends. His and John's close friendship is based more upon discussIng -- Ron hired John; he's still at Philip Morris and he's a scientist there. Ron always took the position that he mentored John; he said he likes to keep up with what's going on inside the company and with all the different projects through John. The other men I don't know so well.

Q. You were saying they would talk about things they did 20 years ago?

A. (Witness nods head affirmatively.)

Q. What types of things were those, do you recall?

A. Over time, I basically, through propinquity being at tables or Ron telling me or showing me or discussing it or describing it to my children or whatever, pretty much got a picture ot everything he had done and the thing of which he is most proud at Philip Morris, I believe, was all the research that he did in product development when he was head of Brand Development for Philip Morris. He's always bragged that the company was a little, tiny -- not tiny -- but a very small, not necessarily illustrious company, considering what he considered his training and education and background. He felt that he really stepped down going to Philip Morris, leaving Dow. But what they had offered him was so good that he did it. But he always felt that all the work that he did in Brand Development and all the work that he did there in developing this method by which they would basically -- he developed the machinery for it, also. Rather than discarding stems and all kinds of refuse that was being thrown out, being a mechanical engineer, who was the son of literally a self-taught mechanical and electrical engineer, he has both the scientific knowledge as well as the mechanical knowledge of how to create machinery. I mean, the man is incredible in that regard. I've never seen anything like it. He is really an off-beat genius in that regard. But he was very proud of the fact that he had developed this method by which all this could be salvaged, introduced into the cigarette itself. He's very multifaceted; he's not narrow. He would actually look at the marketing, the profit margin, the advertising; he would propose advertising for various brands. He described -- it's just not all the different elements. The "COM-ponents," as he always called it. And coming from the South, it's "components." But "COM-ponents." And he would talk about the gases and stuff he got from Reynolds and he'd get stuff from this place and gases from that place, and he would talk about how he got all these different "COM-ponents" and that they would create all these different things. I was bored to tears. I am an interior designer. Okay? And I heard so much about radiant this and off-gasing and all this kind of stuff, I was really about ready to go crazy. And Ron thought most of my friends were the biggest bunch of fruitcake fags -- that's what he called them -- and most of the very fine designers are. And, I mean, our parties were a trip. In the front of the house, you've got -- you know, Ron said to me one night, he said, "God, that six-foot woman in the front room, she is a knockout." And I said, "Well, guess what? Don't hit on her, she's a 'he.'" So, we were absolutely, totally from day one, opposites. Opposites. I am very open. I have lots of friends. I love dinner parties. I love people. Ron, his idea of a big social evening is to have dinner with another couple early and come home to watch the 11 o'clock news. But basically, he was a very stable, good influence for my children. Although my daughter, who has just recently turned 21, thought that he was so boring that she would jokingly call him the "cadaver," which is not a good sign. My sons, on the other hand, realized that this possibly was something I needed. I had been involved with someone for a long time who had private jets, you know. It was pretty jet-setting and a totally different existence. And, so, I found this comfortable.

Q. When he, Ron Tamol, would talk to you -- and you mentioned brands -- do you recall any of the particular brands that he would talk about?

A. Yes. I'm sorry, I'm so verbose.

Q. No, you're not. You're doing just great. You're doing just great.

A. I needed to finish answering the last question. The -- my knowledge increased immeasureably when Ron moved out of his home on Shady Crest Lane in November of '95. We had purchased a home, a beautiful home; a big plantation house built in l756 and were to take possession of the house in November. He, therefore -- he had been renting a very charming house over there. And it was decided that we would move all the contents of his house, his office into my house and store everything in my big English basement and he would office down there untIl we took possession of our house. And I was busy orchestrating the move. Hired the movers, lined up the amount of van space we needed, and then I got blindsided because there was a Quonset hut, a huge- like old Army Quonset hut behind the house. And Ron had not even -- I never set foot in the thing. He had mentioned nothing about even getting anything out of there. I about died when I walked in the door. There were cartons stacked up. Banker's boxes, cartons to the ceiling, half the depth of this Quonset hut. There was equipment of every description. There were cylindrical, centrifuge pieces of equipment. There were all kinds of things. And he was just tickled to death He couldn't wait. I said, "Oh, my God," because he was standing there and the movers are going, "What?" You know. I had to go get another van. I mean, that's how much was there. We filled another truck out of the Quonset hut. And I was appalled. It turned out that he had never cleaned anything out. His son came over to pick up the lawnmower and he --

Q. Excuse me. What is his son's name? Is it Jr.?

A. Ron, Jr. It turned out that -- he exclaimed, as I was expressing my total dismay at the scope of what needed to be loaded and moved out, that we had to be out by 6. This was at like 2 in the afternoon. And I was just blown away. Ron, Jr., stood there and said to me, "You should have him throw it all out." He became livid. He went into one of his famous temper fits. In fact, he got in his car and threw it in reverse and drove off, and told me, "If anything, if one paper is gone, if one anything is gone, you all will answer to me for that." And his son said it had taken them over a week and a half to move all of this out of the attic of the family home over on Buckhill Road, and that he had moved it all into the the Quonset hut where it sat all this time and now he's toting it all to my English basement. And. those men practically got broken backs unloading all that stuff in my English basement.

Q. How big is your basement?

A. My house has 2600 square feet on each floor. The English basement is the full size; it's a high basement; you step way up to the house. So, it's 2600 square feet. And it has two large bedrooms. A full bath. A very, very large space that is over 67 feet long. A laundry area. A second kitchen. It's basically a huge apartment. 2600 square feet is a lot of space. The entire second bedroom was stacked to the ceiling with cartons. All down one wall was stacked with cartons. The entire storeroom was stacked with cartons. It was truly unbelievable and most unsatisfactory to me. The boxes, in many cases, were covered with years of dust. And it was being picked up by all the H.V.A.C. equipment in the house and the whole basement was dusty and the whole house was getting dusty, and he had these ancient boxes all over the basement.

Q. You know who moved it, moved it into the basement?

A. Yes, it's my mover that I use for all big moves, Mr. Chris of Ben Smith Transfer Company. And they were horrified when they saw what needed to be moved. Ron couldn't wait to start going through some of these boxes again. I would be downstairs throwing stuff in the washer, dryer or whatever. And he would say, "Come look at this. I want you to see what I did." And he would go on and on and on. He would bring them upstairs; he'd open the stuff up; he'd show me all these sheets with like scientific diagrams, what I remember from high school chemistry. And once again, I was going through all this gobbledygook. The net effect of it was that he showed me packs of cigarettes, all of which had lab labels on them. Boxes of these things. And the thing of which he was most proud was the Marlboro brand and the cigarette he had developed that was -- what did he call it -- control profile cigarette. And then he showed me a bunch and he said it failed in the marketplace, in market testing, because if the pack got too hot, the holes would open prematurely. And he talked at great length about how certain of the competitors, one company in particular, tried to copy this cigarette and he had them all.

Q. Had he done work on Marlboro?

A. I never got the impression that he did anything more than a scientific testing formulation of Marlboro. He would talk about formulations and the adjustments made to tobacco formulations after they started using -- there was some term that was given -- I never knew what a "hogshead" was. Obviously a hogshead is a hogshead of tobacco; it's the great, huge thing that the tobacco farmers bring in. He used a term for what had been discarded prior to this time. He talked about how the profit margins increased so incredibly through the introduction of what had formerly been discarded. He described it as -- he used all the engineering terms and the scientific terms. It would be emulsified and reconstituted. It would would be put in great, big dryers. The only problem with it was that it didn't contain adequate levels of what make cigarettes cigarettes.

Q. And what did he say that was?

A. He said from the marketing standpoint, the addictive quality is nicotine and maintaining adequate levels of "COM-ponents" in order to do all the marketing necessary to see that people stayed. "Once you got them, we never want to lose them." That was the theory at R&D: "Once their ours, their ours for life."

Q. Who? "Once" who?

A. Smokers. This is the man who would yell at me that I was an addict smoking up the house that stunk. And I said, "Ron, the word's not 'stunk.' If the house stinks, it's because you created a monster." He was very proud that once they were theirs, they were theirs for life.

EXAMINATION BY MR. GAUTHIER:

Q. Once they were addicted, they were --

A. Once they were theirs, once they were on cigarettes, they were theirs for life.

Q. Did he descirbe that as addictive?

A. He has a very interesting way of describing addiction. He qualifies and did so in his OSHA testimony, saying that cigarettes were not addicting. Nicotine is not addicting; it is habit-forming; and that it is difficult but not impossible, people who like to smoke they can elect not to smoke. Therefore, it's not a drug; it's not a controlled substance. And nicotine -- he would talk out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand, he would tell me about a girl that committed suicide by ingesting nicotine and how it's so -- at R&D. And how it's so dangerous, you know, you have to be so careful in monitoring the levels not to get them too high. But on the other hand, you can't get them too low because if you get them too low, the cigarette doesn't do what it's supposed to do which is to keep you buying.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. I'm going to show you some of the documents, copies of some of the documents that were left with you that we picked up. I'm going to show you four sheets - - and Charlie (addressing the court reporter), you can attach them to the statement. First of all, is this his handwriting?

A. (Looking at document) Yes, it is.

Q. And you can identify it?

A. And his stamp.

Q. It's got his name stamped on it and a date?

A. Yes. Now, I'm looking at the upper right-hand corner of one. It says, "R. A. Tamol, February 1st, 1965." It's got a "7" with a circle on it. And it has at the top, "existing sales growth." So, this is his handwriting on that document, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Then I have one that is stamped "R. A. Tamol" in the upper right-hand corner, and it says "February 1, 1965," and at the top it says, "low tar nicotine." And does that one have his handwriting?

A. (Looking at document) That's Ron's handwriting.

Q. You see Paragraph 3 on that document?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you help us read that?

A. (Looking at document) That word's "enough." "Enough nicotine to keep smoker hooked," underlined. "Company with flavorful -" something. "Enough nicotine to keep smoker hooked. Waiting will reap huge benefits. Will not withstand" something. "To be lowest tar acceptable."

Q. I have another sheet stamped "R. A. Tamol, February 1, 1965," with a number "6" circled. And the top line says "program," underlined, with some words. Is that his handwriting on this page?

A. (Looking at document) Yes, it is.

Q. "No. 4," can you help us read that?

A. (Looking at document) "Potential minimum nicotine drip" -- no, that's not "drip." I don't know if that's "potential" or not. "Minimum nicotine" something "to keep normal smoker hooked," as it was always described to me.

Q. And one more sheet. It has "R. A. Tamol" in the upper right-hand corner, stamped "February 2nd, 19" -- it looks like -- "'63 or '65 questions of" something "Lincoln." Is this his handwriting?

A. (Looking at document) Yes, it's his handwriting.

Q. Could you help us read the last thing that is on that page?

A. "Nicotine to keep a man hooked."

Q. Was that the typical expression that he used in relation to nicotine, that his --

A. Hooked. Addicted. Hooked. He would not -- it was always when we started having fights about all this, when all the pressure with the lawyers calling and they became aware that he still had all these documents.

Q. Lawyers for who?

A. Philip Morris.

Q. And about when was that?

A. I mentioned at dinner with John and Jody --

Q. I'm sorry.

A. Lephardt

Q. Okay.

A. On a day that we went out and took pictures of the house in the country, that would have been in November that Ron still had all of his old R&D files and John apparently reported it to the company and to the attorneys. And from that day to literally this, these people have been like in my life, in my face, at my front door. Everybody went ballistic.

Q. When you say these folks, you mean lawyers for Philip Morris?

A. Correct.

Q. I would like you, if you can, to think back. If you can pinpoint for us maybe a month of when -- is it Lephardt?

A. John Lephardt.

Q. John Lephardt, that he first became aware that Ron Tamol had saved these documents?

A. That was in January.

Q. Of 1996?

A. 1996.

Q. A couple of months ago

A. John did not seem unaware that Ron still had all this information. John apparently would obtain from the files lab reports or lab studies for John on request. People from R&D were frequently calling him. I say "frequently," maybe once every couple of weeks if they got stuck.

Q. This is after he retired?

A. 0h, yes. Ron would say to them, Don't you remember I did such and such experiment and, John, this is how it turned out or so and so, this is how it turned out. It's not my job to guess why he kept all this stuff. It's not my job to guess. Except that he is so proud of it and proud of what he and the president made the company. He was always telling me --

Q. Who is the president?

A. He called him by a nickname and he - - Ron was his right-hand guy.

Q. Do you recall the nickname?

A. He wanted Ron to come to New York City. I don't really remember.

Q. That's all right.

A. I am really sorry. I'm really tired.

Q. You are doing terrific.

A. He wanted Ron to come to New York City and for a long period of time, Ron's wife had put her foot down and said she would not leave Richmond; that was her home; she was raising her babies there and she was not leaving her home. So, Ron commuted back and forth. He would fly on the company plane regularly up to the New York corporate meetings on Product and Brand Development, and he would brag --

Q. You mean he was reporting directly to the executives at Philip Morris in New York?

A. Yes. Yes. He was in charge of Brand Development.

Q. For the whole Philip Morris?

A. For the company. I mean, he would dream up the idea for a menthol cigarette, I mean, and he would meet there with market analysts and all this sort of thing and the marketing people. He hired marketing people -- I mean, he would have them hire marketing people from some of the top agencies. Like the man put a contract on my house in December, he had worked with Ron, and it fell through because the guy couldn't afford it; he couldn't get a loan: But the guy is a top advertising executive; he has been in Europe and everywhere. And Ron said, I met you years ago in New York City. You were with such and such an agency and we were doing the marketing program for such and such a cigarette. And the guy's name is Bob Baracci.

Q. How would you spell "Baracci"?

A. Baracci, the advertising guy? B-A-R-A-C-C-I. Robert Baracci. He now lives in Richmond and he is the head of the Finnegan Agency (spelled phonetically) which is a major player in advertising. Tim Finnegan is an old friend of Ron's. Yeah, he was instrumental and he would talk about how so and so company came out with menthol brand. He had nothing good to say about Liggett. He said they're purveyors of garbage; they put crap in their cigarette. He said, "We discovered years ago that" --

Q. Who would say that? Ron would say that?

A. Ron. -- "some COM-ponent," some name of something, and he'd say, "it was a damn rat poison and I had to lower the levels in it." He said, "I'm out to keep people smoking, not to give them rat poison." And his greatest achievement in life, in his opinion, is not two nice kids, it's not being a decent human being. It is working side by side and bringing Philip Morris from a mediocre nothing, low player, to this huge power they are now. And he was intoxicated with this power of Philip Morris. And my experience in dealing with most of those people is that they lie with the most outrageous -- I thought Michael lied, I thought the man who had been in my life was a liar.

Q. You mean pre-Ron?

A. Right, and he's a top criminal lawyer and nationally -- I mean, he's very well known. And Michael hated him. He was insanely -- Ron hated Michael and Michael doesn't like him much either. It's sort of like "War of the Titans" when we would end up at the same party. But Ron would say -- I'm not going to repeat the curse word he said. He said he's nothing but a blankity-blank criminal. And I'd say, "You are one to talk. Let's march up in front of OSHA and say we have nothing left to do with the tobacco company. Philip Morris is not sponsoring us being here. You know, we're Mr. Big Guy sitting up there telling OSHA that this is not addicting, not harmful." I said, "Ron, how dare you call Michael a criminal. You're telling bald faced lies and you know they're lies." And I'd say, "Not only that. When was the last time Michael sent somebody to death?"

Q. You don't mean -- I mean, Ron Tamol never admitted to you that he was lying -- that he lied to OSHA?

A. Hell, yes, he admitted to me that he lied to OSHA.

Q. He did?

A. I slept with him, I was marrying him.

Q. When did he do that?

A. When we were fighting, in the last couple of weeks, the last two or three weeks.

Q. Did he ever say he lied to the F.D.A.? Did he ever admit that?

A. I challenged him on that one and he would start shouting at me that it was none of my G.D. business and that did I not realize, as my southern lady brain, he said, "how many little of your $200 designer pumps do you think you are going to put on your size 10 foot if" -- you know, if we don't go along with this. He said, "May I remind you that everything I own is tied up in that company."

Q. If you don't go along with what? What was he talking about?

A. The program

Q. And what is the program?

A. Stonewall. Deny; deny; deny. Destroy; destroy; destroy.

Q. Destroy what?

A. Documents. He hated lawyers. He is obsessive about lawyers. He felt that some of his best projects and some of the best projects that would have made a great deal of money for the company were closed down by the lawyers, and they were. He told me about all these different projects. He had nothing but contempt for Ian (spelled phonetically) for being on TV and all these different things. He said DeNoble (spelled phonetically) was an idiot. Ron didn't have anything good to say about anybody that would hurt the company. In many ways, my life the last six weeks or two months -- although it was so inane having known a lawyer for a long time -- the movie, "The Firm"?

Q. Sure.

A. The real firm is Philip Morris. The movie was ludicrous compared to this Philip Morris outfit. I mean, I literally went to my attorney and I said, "Dave, I know" --

Q. You know what? I want to stop you right now.

A. Okay

Q. I don't want you to tell me what you told your lawyer --

A. Okay.

Q. -- or what your lawyer told you.

A. Okay.

Q. And I'm doing it -- I'm very curious to know, but it wouldn't be fair, I don't think, at this point for me to get you involved in disclosing something he might not want you --

A. He would be unhappy with me if I did that.

Q. Okay. Well, don't do it.

A. In fact, he was furious with me that I didn't get a receipt.

Q. I want to let you know we will give you a receipt.

A. Okay. He said, "Hatsy, Hatsy, Hatsy, you got to quit being an interior designer."

Q. Let's not talk about what he told you or you told him.

A. Okay.

Q. Okay. And that way you'll keep him happy and he'll know that we were straight with you.

A. Okay.

Q. Let me go back a little bit because there are a couple of things that puzzled me. There is an awful lot that puzzles me. One of the things that I need to get clear in my own miud and I need your help. If you could share with us when these phone calls started coming from the Philip Morris lawyers or whatever happened in that connection. I think you said in the last few weeks, last six weeks. Evidently, since January of '96.

A. I finally installed a second phone line because I became completely exasperated. I could look back and find out when I did that. I didn't like answering the phone for these people. They don't greet you, they don't say "hello," they don't identify themselves.

Q. How did you know they were lawyers?

A. Ron would tell me.

Q. Oh, Ron would tell you they were lawyers from Philip Morris?

A. Yes.

Q. What were these lawyers telling him or you?

A. He stormed up the stairs after one particular conversation and he was livid, and he said, "I will not destroy my life's work. I will not." And he was furious. Apparently there was a -- not apparently. I know there was a tremendous amount of conflict going on that he was being told in no uncertain terms to destroy everything. And they were going to help him do it. They were going to come in my house and they were going to pick all this stuff up and destroy it. And I said, "Yo' no." I said, "Let me tell you what. You and your son are very strong people. You have a nice pickup truck. You're telling me a lot more than I want to know. You are beginning to make Michael look like a saint." I said, "I don't want anymore of those people calling my house. They are goons." I said, "I know the difference between good trial lawyers and goons. These guys are goons. Real lawyers don't call you and pull smoke and mirrors." I mean, these guys would call and I would say, "May I say who's calling, please?" "May I speak to Mr. Tamol?" I mean, this is ridiculous; this is my phone. I pay for this phone line. And he was behaving horribly. His temper was exploding two and three times a day. He was cursing incessantly. My closest friends would not call the house anymore. They would not call the house because he was so ugly when he would answer the telephone. And the situation, the relationship became unbearable. We separated for about a week and he went to his son's house. Came back to me and asked that I forgive him and he sald, "This whole lawsuit thing is driving me crazy."

Q. What lawsuit thing?

A. The tobacco industry thing was driving him crazy.

Q. How was that? Did he explain how it was driving him crazy?

A. Ron doesn't explain; he explodes. He doesn't explain. He just off-gases, right through his mouth, and it is not a pretty sight. I mean, I live in an older area as you do here. My neighbors could hear him. It was becoming embarrassing. I mean, his behavior. I became afraid of him. His son and I agreed that he should see a psychiatrist. And I arranged for him to have an appointment. He refused to go. And I made another appointment and he also refused to go, and I told him if all of this didn't stop pretty soon that he would have to leave. I now know that he was apparently setting me up in his own way. Because as of about two months ago, he's been liquidating all of the funds in our joint money market account and quiet liberally overdrew it as of Wednesday of last week. He's apparently been calling -- the company wanted him out of my house; they wanted him away from me

Q. How do you know that?

A. I was told that

Q. Can you share with us who told you?

A. John Lephardt told me that; Jody told me that. Ron in fits of rage would tell me that.

Q. Why did the company want him out of your house, do you know?

A. They felt I was high profile. They felt I was dangerous. They considered me a threat.

Q. Hatsy --

A. I'm not stupid and I'm not a Philip Morris wife who is terrified that my next meal and my pretty pumps are not going to be paid for. I'm not -- I've already been through enough in my almost 50 years to know that when people start acting the way that Ron and the rest of these people were acting, there are major problems and I wanted to get out right now. When you speak of F.B.I., my first inclination is that this prominent man known as the finest lawyer in Richmond may not be, because when the F.B.I. showed up at my front door --

Q. This is the Mike fellow that you dated before you met Ron Tamol?

A. Yes. He was the subject of a massive state police and F.B.I. investigation. Interestingly, as I was telling Chris, he was head of the F.B.I. here in New Orleans for many years. He's a former agent. And they never were able to indict him; they never charged him. He's awfully good. And the U.S. Attorney's office couldn't win any cases. He kept defeating them on all different fronts. And so they charged him with money laundering and, unfortunately, it was because he was taking money from the law practice supposedly, not reporting it and they interviewed me and we got along famously. In fact, the agent in charge of the investigation sort of became very paternalistic. As I told Suzie after about six weeks, he said, "What are you doing with this man? You are such a nice person, you're really nice. We keep checking you out, you're telling the truth." You know, "What are you doing with this man?

Q. Do you remember the agent's name?

A. Yes. Frank Stokes. Frank is great. When Ron and I became engaged, I called the F.B.I.'s office in Richmond and we check on each other now and again. I left a message for Frank and I said, "Frankie boy, Mr. Gum Shoe, I am engaged to marry a linear engineer. Very, very linear. And I doubt seriously that with anyone as boring as Ron that I will ever have anything exciting ever in my life again." I sent him an invitation to the wedding. But I have been around the criminal trial lawyer enough years to know when people are up to no good.

Q. You had mentioned before that sometime after January l996, the Philip Morris lawyers began calling the house. And according to Ron Tamol, what were they -- what did Tamol tell you about those conversations?

A. He indicated that they wanted to -- what was the word he used -- work with him on potential testimony. They wanted to work with him. And he was very proud of the fact that they thought that he had been such a wonderful witness in front of OSHA and that he had done such a good job before. But they just wanted to make sure that everybody was coordinated. They wanted all the testimony to be coordinated and he said it's very important that the situation stay completely manageable. And there was continuing dispute over the files.

Q. What sort of dispute?

A. He didn't want them destroyed.

Q. Ron Tamol didn't want them destroyed?

A. No, he did not want the files destroyed.

Q. And who wanted them destroyed?

A. The lawyers. Absolutely. They wanted everything disappeared.

Q. Ron Tamol admitted that to you?

A. Oh, absolutely. That has been one if not the greatest causes of contention and difficulty in the last several months. They demanded that everything be removed and be destroyed.

Q. Now, you used the term from the novel or the movie, "The Firm" to describe Philip Morris.

A. Yes.

Q. Why do you use that term?

A. Even Ron in his own ways is afraid of them. He's afraid of the lawyers. He said to me the company is not the company it was. That Philip Morris used to be a bunch of scientists and engineers and businessmen who were doing a good job with what they are doing. But that now all the G.D. lawyers are running the company. That none of the executives made decisions anymore. R&D, everything was under the control of the lawyers. They made every decision of the company. And although he is a very big man and very powerful in the way he speaks and a very well spoken man, I think what began to scare me more than anything else were the things he was saying, the things they wanted to do or have done. I urged him to consult with his own attorney, business attorney, or other counsel as to whether these documents were in some way protected. I said, "Ron, it is not beyond the scope of imagination that these documents are under some sort of subpoena. And when people are franticly running around to get files that have been sitting in a Quonset hut or your attic for decades and they want to help you destroy them, and come on over to my house and get them or we'll send John over there with his truck and we'll make sure it's all removed." And I said this whole situation is becoming byzantine; it's scary. And what scared me most is that he was, too, getting afraid, but yet he was sticking to his guns. He absolutely was not releasing the documents. Now, one thing had changed, and this really got me scared, was that he started going through all the boxes. He spent enormous amounts of time down in the basement beginning and during the time that Ian was the focus of so much press coverage, and that was after or during the time -- Ron watched every show; he had two televisions on at the same time. He would get on the phone and call people and they would discuss it. Do you remember some of the folks that he called?

A. I'm sorry.

Q. That's okay.

A. I don't. He was becoming -- we've always had a very open relationship. Discussed everything. He was becoming secretive. He would not answer questions; he would not tell me who called. He was treating me badly. He was being very ugly to me. He was talking terribly to me. His temper was out of control. He was out of control. He started going through the boxes in the basement and he would fill up green trash bags and then -- and he became obsessed with doing this. And I can hear through the floors of the house, it's an old house, there is no insulation between the floors. I could hear him yelling on the telephone, talking to people down there. And obviously the conflict was that he was being told to destroy everything; they wanted to come to the house, have everything picked up and have it all destroyed. And he was equally determined that it was not going to be destroyed. And it was really an awful situation. The week before last I became alarmed. Our personal situation had deteriorated to the point that I wanted him gone; never wanted to see him again; and never wanted the people calling the house again. My daughter and son -- my daughter was coming home for spring break from college. My son had asked to spend one last holiday at home before getting married June 1st. I was really touched by that; that he didn't want to bring his fiancee; that he wanted to be at home with mom and his remaining brothers and sisters and spend time. And I told Ron under no uncertain terms -- and the one thing that turns me into a battle-ax is my children. I mean, there are a lot of other things that I will argue about, but on that I am unequivocating. I said, "This will not go on while my children are home. It cannot. It will not. These phone calls will stop. All of this craziness will stop. You will get your behavior in check." I said, "I don't care what you and that G.D. bunch of lawyers want to do. It will not affect my children. It will not continue to affect this home. You will keep this out of this house." I demanded he move his office out of the house and move everything, take it all away. I said, "I don't want it here. I don't want you here." I'm aware that one evening his son came by with the truck. Now, this was after my daughter arrived and she had some friends waiting for her at the house, and they loaded up stuff out of the English basement, cartons into the back of the truck.

Q. His son's house is --

A. The Stillwell Road address.

Q. 1004 Stillwell?

A. I don't know. I read it off the wedding list for my son's wedding. By Tuesday of last week we had planned to go to the country club for dinner and take the children and some of their friends. And he said to me as we were getting dressed something along the lines that, "Well, at least you will be happy to know it's all going to be out of here tomorrow." And I said, "But you are not destroying it." And he reeled on me and told me -- he cursed me out, telling me essentially that none of this was my business and that I had better keep my blankity-blank mouth shut. And he said, "You tell everything to that God damn Jenny Lewis. You don't tell her a word about this." And he told me I better not divulge to anyone what was going on. And the next morning he left claiming that he was going to the country club, that they had opened up the driving range. And my daughter was sleeping and my son was due in shortly. And my front door bell rang and I went to the front door, and there were men standing at the front door. And I became irate because one of the men tried to step right into my house, almost pushed passed me. And I said, "Excuse me. Who are you?" And they said, "We are here to see Mr. Tamol." I said, "Mr. Tamol is not here." "Well, we'll come in and wait for him." I said, "No, you won't." I said, "You'll leave and and you'll leave right now." It scared me. My blood literally --

Q. Who is Chamberlain (sic) --

A. Pardon me?

Q. Who did you say?

A. Tamol. They didn't even say Ron. They said Tamol. And I told them that they couldn't come in and wait. And I said, "Let me tell you something. You are from Philip Morris, aren't you?" And I said, "I'll tell you what. I understand this is a free country, but you are standing on my porch with imported tiles from Padua, Italy. Get off of them. And those are the steps and that's the sidewalk. Now out there is city property and you go out there if you want to, but don't ever come near my house again." And I closed the door and disintegrated. Absolutely disintegrated. I just - - I just -- it was just awful. And I told him he had to leave when he got home. And he told me he would leave in good time and there was a horrible scene that ensued. I ultimately -- this is very interesting. My daughter left to go get my son at the airport. And he was being so abusive and verbally abusive and physically abusive, and was maniacal. And I called 911 and the comedy of this whole thing is that the police officers helped him put the cartons in his car to try to calm the situation. They sent some officers over. And I waited quietly outside the house. I only wanted him gone. And he said, "I need to take my things with me, I need my things." And there were -- and he was trudging up and down the stairs, filling up his Infinity with cartons and he packed the entire car, trunk, back seat, front seat. And I just stood there very quietly, didn't say a word and he left. I haven't seen him since. He has called a number of times since and I instituted call-blocking on the phone

Q. What has he told you when he's called?

A. He's ranted and raved. He's threatened me. He's told me that I will be harmed it I don't keep my mouth shut. I've had phone calls where there was no one there. And I got call-block put on my line and I had a very helpful person at the telephone company that showed me how I can block the last incoming call. So, I get these hang-up phone calls and I simply just block whatever that number was. And then less than 60 seconds later the phone would ring again. I consider my children being home last week and that scene on Wednesday and trying to keep a level of normalcy going in my home, one of the worst weeks of my life. It was truly -- I'm just traumatized over it. It was horrible. It was horrible. I understand from a mutual friend who is an attorney and a golfer out at Willow Oaks that Ron has spent a tremendous amount of time meeting with the attorneys from Philip Morris.

Q. Do you recall who told you that?

A. Steve Isaacs. And he told me that he and his son together had gone and met with them at length.

Q. Is Ron Tamol, Jr., an employee of Philip Morris?

A. No.

Q. Does he live with a fellow by the name of Cole (spelled phonetically), Ron Jr.?

A. No, he has a girlfriend that lives with him by the name of Heather Salzbach (spelled phonetically)

Q. Were you ever asked to get rid of any documents?

A. Yes.

Q. Who did that?

A. Ron told me to put everything in the trash. John told me to put everything in the trash. John called me last Sunday night and offered to come over and help me clean out the basement. On Friday last, the children I told to invite friends to dinner. So, I had this dinner party going and on Wednesday with the dinner party coming up on Friday, I got the police, this guy with cartons, incessant phone ringing and the phone company telling me to change my number that I've had for, God, so many years. So I got to the dinner party and got the kids on the plane. Saturday, Ron called and said that he and John Lephardt and some other guys were coming over the next night and were unloading the basement. They were taking everything. I said, "If you come near this house, I will be forced to call the police." I said, "Ron, you may not come near this house." And I said, "I think that we need to handle this through attorneys." Complicating this was in the meantime he had closed out the money market account; he had stopped payment at my bank on a very significant check on the household account causing 20 some-odd checks to bounce and the bank was looking to me to get funds wired in from Texas to cover all of that. And the brokerage firm, Branch Cabel (spelled phonetically), was looking to me to cover all those funds. In the meantime I've got a house payment, children to support, groceries to buy and he cleaned everything out. So, I was spending a lot of tIme on the phone with my trust officer.

Q. Have you ever been employed by Philip Morris or a tobacco company?

A. Oh, no.

Q. What about any of your kids?

A. No.

Q. Can you recall any incident that may have involved someone that quit smoking that he was upset about?

A. My daughter.

Q. What is your daughter's name?

A. Anne.

Q. Was this the one that visited you?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us about that?

A. He was both upset and intrigued that my daughter had been able to quit smoking Marlboros. After all the conversations we had, I was aware that she is the target market for the Marlboro cigarette. He thinks that this marketing with gifts and the Marlboro train and all this stuff, it's just an act of genius.

Q. Did he ever indicate what it was directed to?

A. Adolescents? Adolescents.

Q. He knows that?

A. Absolutely. That's the direction the marketing was designed to take. "We get them" -- "We get them hooked, they're ours for life." And he was very distressed that my daughter had managed to quit smoking and he was practically cross-examining her about how she had managed to do it.

Q. When did that occur?

A. Last week. She arrived a week ago Saturday and he was interested in having her talk to people at Philip Morris -- I mean, he's like -- "I'm a scientist you know." And I was enraged. I mean, I was enraged that this -- after what we had gone through, you know, since Christmas so they can get this lovely, blossoming 21 year old hooked again. I said, "Are you out of your mind?" I mean, he really was very genuinely intrigued, upset and wanted to know how she managed to do it.

Q. Were you around with him when the Liggett settlement hit the news?

A. He was berserk.

Q. Why was that? Were you in the company with any other Philip Morris people around that time?

A. He was on the phone with them incessantly. He saw it ultimately as a breach in the defenses. And then he very carefully analyzed what the terms of the settlement were; discussed it at length with people at Philip Morris. They were putting up a big front and requiring all their executives, both retired and current, to put up a big front; that this was just nothing; there was no money; there was no real settlement; there was no real achievement. Ron would just rant. If the tobacco companies were found to have committed no wrong, then the whole thing was out the window and they were a sorry little company anyway. And he said, "We have nothing to worry about. We have absolutely nothing to worry about. We've got everything totally under control." I said, "I tell you what, Ron. If you have nothing to worry about, you all sure do act worried." And my sarcasm did not improve the situation. Home is real important to me. You don't introduce all the business at home. Home is home. And I became very sick and tired -- it's interesting. He's like two people. There is this -- the company is so powerful, they are so rich, they can drain everybody. We've got -- Do you have any idea what our profit margins are at Philip Morris. We will beat all the lawyers, because there is no way everybody -- you know, we will fight until we got down to the last cent, and they will throw everything they've got behind it. And then on the other hand, he was worried, everybody was worried. All of them were worried. He was very worried. He asked me to come in and watch the "60 Minutes" interview with Ian and see -- he wanted my opinion as to how damaging it was. And I said, "I can't give you the opinion as to the damage, I'm not into doing damage control for you and Philip Morris." I said, "I'll I tell you one thing. The man impressed me as telling the truth and as having a conscience which you seem to be sorely lacking." I have lost all respect for him. I can't love someone I don't respect. I've lost all respect for him. And I lost all respect for the fact that primarily it was not out of any great sense of commitment to the company or allegiance to the company. It was purely financial. All these guys were tied in. Everything they got. Their retirement; their income; their stock. Ron had been begged by his stockbroker, who is the head of Branch Cabel in Richmond to diversify. He's just like all of them. It's almost scary that people of this -- he will not buy a share of AT&T. Everything is in Philip Morris. Everything. And so the thought -- he was ranting and raving about having taken well over a half million dollar loss on paper when the stock market went down. He was berserk. They all have been acting berserk. And Lephardt wanted to come over and help me clean up the basement, and I told him that I had household help that I've always had and we had the situation under control.

Q. How did you get to us?

A. Oh, that was sort of weird. I was genuinely afraid to go look through what was down there. I wasn't going to follow anybody's instructions and put it in trash cans. And as cops-and-robbers as everything was getting, I figured that I'd put it in the trash cans and less than 50 seconds later all these men would jump out of cars and grab it all. I mean, they treated me like I was stupid. "Just go out and put it in your dumpster." Oh, please. "And we know the boxes are heavy and bags are heavy, and so John will come over and help you." And I just -- what in the hell am I going to do. I know what goes down there. I know what's down there. I think I know what's down there. I mean, I really didn't know, but I thought I knew. I'm from Texas. I was raised in Austin, predominently in Austin. I decided to take the bull by the horns. On Monday I called George Bush's office. I come from a very important family in Texas and a lot of people know who the Heeps are and where the Heep ranch is. And I got a call back from a special assistant to the governor who was very nice who said the governor's office had nothing to do whatsoever with the Texas litigation and that I should call over to the A.G.'s office. And by the way, I make notes of every telephone conversation and time and names and everything, if you need the names.

Q. That's great.

A. I was around a lawyer a long time. I keep a log. In fact, my log for the last several months, I mean, it's really interesting: "2:10 - goons."

Q. Where are your logs?

A. I brought them. They are in the briefcase at my son's. I was afraid to leave them in the house. Then I put a call in to the A.G.'s office. I got put on deadly hold and got a very lovely lady who never identified herself nor would she, with Citizens Assistance, who told me how delightful it was that I called and was I smoker and if I needed information I could call Consumer Affairs and get a pamphlet. I said, "Ma'am, I've been sleeping for the last two years with the man who developed these damned cigarettes. Now either you got somebody there that cares or you don't. And I'm not going to sit on hold anymore." I said, "I've had it." "Now, don't get upset, ma'am." I thought this was insane. I expected the Philip Morris people to come crashing through my doors at any moment. I didn't know what was going to happen. And so that got me nowhere and -- I don't know, I don't remember, my logs will show, somebody mentioned that Harvard was involved in this. Andy Lewis went to Harvard, and I got such a kick when I got information in Boston. After four or five hours after the ridiculous experience with Citizens Assistance or whatever it is, I said screw it, I'm going to call these people and let them take this stuff. I got so frustrated. And then I would go up to the office and I would look at Michael Baker and I would drive around for a while and I would go back home, turn off the alarm. And I would think, no, I can't do that and I said this is getting absurd. So finally I called Harvard, and I got such a kick out of the woman answering the phone who said "Harvard." And I said I need to speak with any of the attorneys or professors. I assumed there were professors who were doing pro bono work on this case. I finally got to the assistant to, I believe it was, Professor Miller. I started elsewhere and then went to Professor Tribe (spelled phonetically). I got in and I got voice mail. I would not leave my name and number. I was not leaving my name and number on anybody's voice mail. I was really becoming totally paranoid, to be honest with you. I spoke to an assistant to Professor Miller who then gave me Suzie's name.

Q. Suzie Foulds?

A. Right.

Q. At the Costano P.L.C. office?

A. Exactly. He was extremely helpful and told me that if I did not receive a response to please call him back. And I called Ruby who took the call, who identified herself as Suzie' s assistant, and by then I pretty well had it. I said, "My ex-fiance, the man who is at R&D at Philip Morris, I got a basement full of documents, I think that they are going be destroyed." Ruby was wonderful and I got in touch with Suzie, and then I spoke to -- received a call from Billy Breit, and I was just very anxious and, in the meantime, I had spoken to my lawyer.

Q. What is your lawyer's name?

A. David Schroeder (spelled phonetically).

Q. Do you have his address or phone number?

A. With me. I've got documents with me.

Q. Is he in Raleigh?

A. No. He's in Alexandria.

Q. Alexandria, Virginia

Q. Alexandria, Virginia. Jeff spoke with you and then what happened in terms of the documents? I'm sorry, Billy Breit.

A. We made arrangements for his assistant Lori and another attorney at his office, whose name I can't recall right now, to come to Richmond immediately and pick them up. And that is exactly what occurred. The documents that they were given were those that had been in green trash bags that were to be discarded, and I was told to discard them. And they took the documents. And then I spoke to at length since that time to a number of people.

Q. You spoke with Chris Guidroz?

A. Yes, I've spoken with Chris.

Q. And you spoke with Bob Redfearn?

A. Yes.

Q. And Suzie a number of times?

A. Yes. I did receive receive finally a phone call from Hugh McNeily (spelled phonetically) from Texas. I answered the phone after the documents had been picked up as I was headed out the door to go talk to my lawyer in D.C. the day before yesterday. And he wouldn't give me any phone numbers. He kept saying he would have to call me back. I said I'm not available right now, so try me later. And he called and left a message yesterday but he was on the road.

Q. I have just a couple of more questions. I appreciate your taking this time with us,?

A. Okay.

Q. We are learning a lot and it's very helpful to us. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mr. Tamol, Ronald Tamol, and the executives at Philip Morris knew for many years that nicotine was addictive? Do you have any doubt about that?

A. Absolutely not

Q. Why not?

A. Ron spent too much time describing to me the testing that was done, the processes that were utilized, the test samples that were done on individuals. The marketing strategies, the plans, the discussions with top executives. The constitution of a cigarette and that there were various levels of nicotine. It is quite clear and discussed this with him as well. I said, "You manipulated the nicotine contents of cigarettes." He said, "Of course we did, it's our product.

Q. This was done before the F.D.A. hearings where the head of Philip Morris said that nicotine wasn't addictive and that they weren't manipulating nicotine levels?

A. Basically our conflicts and fights --

Q. I'm not speaking about your conflicts and fights. Let me go back. The manipulation of nicotine and the conscious addiction of folks due to nicotine that was done by Marlboro and its executives --

A. You mean Philip Morris.

Q. I'm sorry, Philip Morris -- that Ron Tamol participated in, all of that was done at a time before the F.D.A. hearings?

A. 0h, Lord, yes. Years and years and years. Oh, those men lied.

Q. The men that stood up under oath in the F.D.A. hearings --

A. They were lying through their teeth, they knew damned good and well nicotine is addictive. Ron knows it damn good and well. I think the worst argument he gave to me was this is the man who callously called me an addict.

Q. Why did he call you that?

A. Because he hated the fact that I smoked, he hated the smell of smoke which is absurd. I said, Well, may I remind you that I was this sweet young thing at 18 that you addicted when you were at R&D and -- you know -- basically you all created your own monster. And now that I'm addicted, and he would say, "You're not addicted, you're hooked. It's not an addiction. Heroin is addicting. Cigarettes are not addicting." And I'd say, "Ron, heroin is an illegal substance. How can you compare heroin to cigarettes?" I said, "Secondly, at least if I were a heroin addict, I could withdraw on methadone and go to a methadone treatment center." I said, "I find it rather comical that you compare cigarettes to heroin." I said, "My best friend and I have been trying to quit for over 15 years and can't and we're both pretty secure women in ourselves, and it's pretty damned sickening that we can't." And I said, "You knew before all these people knew the stuff was addicting, that was the whole purpose for creating it." And he said, "That's the plan, baby." And he would get very ugly with me and tell me if I wanted to enjoy my designer pumps I should just keep my mouth shut.

Q. Did he ever indicate that he or some of his co-workers at Philip Morris had done any work in tobacco with R. J. Reynolds?

A. Yes. In fact he said he had.

Q. Do you recall what type of work he said he had done with R. J. Reynolds?

A. He showed me some documents where he had written to Reynolds for "COM-ponents" or something. And other than that, I'm aware that there was some work that was done with Reynolds. I don't know -- it was related to formulation of cigarettes as he made it. You know, different formulations

Q. You mentioned the control profile cigarette with the holes in it that he was so proud of. What was the purpose of the holes, do you recall that? Did he tell you?

A. Something about marketing, but pleasurability standpoint. R&D, as Ron explained to it to me, focused a lot on sensate focus. That a cigarette not smoke too hot. Oral gratification basically and maintaining a certain level of all various "COM-ponents" where you had a good product that was consistent, but that maintained a level in the user whereby it was not a take-it or leave-it. I mean, he said, "What you don't understand, little missy, is if it went to $10 a pack, people would still buy Marlboros. We did that good a job on those things." And he was whining away that my daughter quit smoking Marlboros. It just upset his entire apple cart. He considered Marlboros to be the crown jewel of the company.

EXAMINATION BY MR. REDFEARN:

Q. I have one question. Did Ron ever destroy any of the documents that were in his basement, to your knowledge?

A. In my basement?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. I don't think so. They never went into the trash. He was insistent that they not be destroyed. He basically -- it was bizarre. It was like that was his sarcophagus almost, those cartons lining the walls, it was symbolic of the value of the man's life. Once they left my house, I don't know. But it was his voiced intention to never destroy them.

EXAMINATION BY MR. GAUTHIER:

Q. But he had taken some out, I guess, when he went through them, when he was spending all that time in the basement. He had actually taken some out and put them in green garbage bags. He couldn't bring himself --

A. He never threw it out.

Q. He wouldn't throw them out. His intent was to trash it, but he just couldn't make himself do it.

A. Right.

Q. And that's the bags that we ended up with. I gathered in talking earlier, and tell me if I'm wrong in what you said earlier, that you had gone to dinner with Lephardt and Jody?

A. Yes.

Q. And Ron was there?

A. Yes.

Q. And you must have been under the impression that Lephardt already knew that Ron had all these documents?

A. Yes.

Q. Because Lephardt was actually sending Ron some documents?

A. Yes. Freguently.

Q. So you thought, well, he knows that he has all these documents?

A. This is no big deal.

Q. You just happened to blurt out that he has all these documents?

A. I called it the sarcophagus.

Q. Did you see a visible change in Lephardt's expression then?

A. John was shocked. He, in fact, questioned Ron as to how he managed to get them out of there. I mean, supposedly, you are not supposed to get them out of there. You're not supposed to be able to do that. That's the deal, it's R&D, it's supposed to be top secret.

Q. Was it uniform? I understood the documents in Research & Development were destroyed as they went along?

A. Oh, absolutely

Q. Did Ron ever tell you that, they always destroyed all these documents, so I snuck them out so they couldn't be destroyed?

A. It was his work product, so he wasn't about to let it get destroyed. He made it very clear that he thought that he had this intact thing. All these boxes, this Quonset hut thing of this entire history of this company as it went from being the very small company to this hugely successful company, and he took great pride and gratification in the role that he felt he had played. And he would -- he would not just brag about what he had done, he would give a lot of credit to other people as well.

Q. Now, was it the legal department's policy to have all those documents destroyed?

A. It was my understanding from him, yes.

Q. I know you refer to them as "G.D. lawyers." A lot of people do. Did he ever mention any names in particular?

A. No. They were always "the lawyers."

Q. "The lawyers." He didn't care for them enough to even call them by name. Jody, do you recall her last name?

A. I don't know Jody's last name.

Q. Now, when they came to your door that day, were you under the impression they were attorneys, or did you know?

A. They identified themselves.

Q. As lawyers?

A. As lawyers. I would never have been that ungracious. I'm not -- I didn't know they were lawyers yet. I would never have been that ungracious, but the man had the absolute audacity to try step to into my house past me.

Q. From what you saw, when he showed you the documents, they were Research & Development documents, they were marketing documents at times, they were documents that showed the company's philosophy on marketing?

A. Oh, absolutely.

Q. Aimed at adolescents?

A. Yes.

Q. And he explained that to you, that they were aimed at adolescents?

A. Absolutely. That's what intrigued me about what I had been seeing on the news and that type of thing. I thought, my God, they are going to expose everything these people did. They are getting them.

Q. He made it clear to you that if he hadn't gotten these documents out of Philip Morris even though they were his life's work, legal department would have destroyed them all?

A. Absolutely. He said they came through and destroyed everything. For years, this stuff was kept in R&D as you normally do in a very secure situation. But he said that in the '80s that there was just carnage, the paranoia became so intense.

Q. And they started destroying everything?

A. Everything.

Q. And that's when he decided to sneak them out?

A. Oh, he's been sneaking stuff out since his first days with the company. I mean, he never stopped -

EXAMINATION BY MR. REDFEARN:

Q. I have one last question. You said that it was your understanding that they wanted to pick up the documents from the basement -- "They" being Philip Morris -- and destroy them?

A. Yes

Q. What made you think they were going to take them and destroy them?

A. That's what Ron told me.

EXAMINATION BY MR. GAUTHIER:

Q. But Lephardt, when he called you, did he tell you take those documents and destroy them?

A. He wanted to offer me his help; to come to the house and help me put all this stuff in the trash because he knows my house and he knows that there is a big, steep set of stairs, and he wanted to assist me in putting things in the trash.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN:

Q. Just one more question. What is John Lephardt's position with the company?

A. He's a scientist.

Q. Employed by Philip Morris?

A. Yes.

Q. And still employed by Philip Morris?

A. Absolutely.

Q. I think we have been at this long enough. I want to thank you.

This certification is valid only for a transcript accompanied by my original raised seal on this page. I, A. CHARLES BORRELLO, Certified Court Reporter in and for the State of Louisiana, as the officer before whom this testimony was taken, do hereby certify that HATSY HEEP, to whom oath was administered, after having been first duly sworn by me upon authority of R.S. 37:2554, did testify as hereinbefore set forth in the foregoing 62 pages; that this testimony was reported by me in the stenotype reporting method, was prepared and transcribed by me or under my personal direction and supervision, and is a true and correct transcript to the best of my ability and understanding; that I am not related to counsel or to the parties herein, nor am I otherwise interested in the outcome of this matter.

A. CHARLES BORRELLO
Certified Court Reporter
License No. 71004
Dated: 4/6/96

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